Power Electronics in the Energy Transition

00:00:01: - "Sound On Power On".

00:00:03: Your power electronics podcast powered by PCIM Europe.

00:00:09: - Hello, and welcome to "Sound On Power On".

00:00:12: I'm your host David Haggerty, and today we are looking

00:00:16: at how power electronics fits into the bigger picture

00:00:19: of energy transition and climate protection,

00:00:22: and the concrete steps one of Germany's federal states

00:00:25: is taking to tackle these issues,

00:00:27: through support for research, industry, and society,

00:00:30: and projects from materials and components

00:00:33: to control systems and sector coupling.

00:00:37: To explain this, I am joined by Frank Osterwald,

00:00:40: managing director of the Society for Energy

00:00:43: and Climate Protection of the German state

00:00:45: of Schleswig-Holstein,

00:00:47: also known by its German acronym as the EKSH.

00:00:52: After his first degree in electrical engineering

00:00:54: from the Technical University Berlin,

00:00:56: Frank Osterwald went to the Fraunhofer Institute

00:00:59: for Reliability and Micro Integration

00:01:01: to research his doctorate.

00:01:03: He then went on to various R&D

00:01:05: management and board positions for companies in technologies

00:01:09: such as micro and optical electronics,

00:01:11: and smart card modules.

00:01:13: Most recently, he was director of research

00:01:15: at Danfoss Silicon Power where he was also responsible

00:01:18: for university relations and industry associations.

00:01:22: Today, apart from being a director of PCIM Europe,

00:01:26: and managing director of the EKSH,

00:01:28: Frank Osterwald is also an honorary professor

00:01:31: at the University of Applied Sciences Kiel in Germany.

00:01:34: Welcome, Frank.

00:01:35: - Hello, David.

00:01:37: - The remit of the EKSH is very much

00:01:39: about the many different ways

00:01:41: we can achieve energy and climate goals,

00:01:43: which includes power electronics.

00:01:45: But maybe we could start with an introduction

00:01:48: to the full scope of the EKSH.

00:01:51: - We are having an interesting selection

00:01:53: of stakeholders or shareholders,

00:01:57: which is the state of Schleswig-Holstein

00:02:00: on the one hand side,

00:02:01: and the universities of Schleswig-Holstein

00:02:04: as well as Hanzevac, which is our regional

00:02:08: energy grid operator,

00:02:10: and these three very different shareholders,

00:02:14: they are owning EKSH, and they are giving the mission to us,

00:02:21: which is yeah, funding research

00:02:24: and transfer projects at the universities

00:02:28: together with our strong transfer partners.

00:02:31: For instance, if talking about projects in research,

00:02:37: we are having funded a two years project

00:02:41: in power electronics around

00:02:43: silicon carbide-based charging stations,

00:02:46: which has been driven by one of our advisory board members

00:02:52: in PCIM Europe together with a well known company

00:02:55: around the corner.

00:02:57: And then we are supporting scholarships

00:02:59: in energy and climate.

00:03:01: One of our recipients is focusing

00:03:05: on the optimization of losses in electric machines

00:03:09: by better controlling the eddy currents

00:03:11: in the metal sheet packages of the machine.

00:03:14: And to relate our research projects

00:03:19: to our climate protection goals,

00:03:22: we are currently setting up

00:03:23: an energy transition research roadmap

00:03:27: together with our university.

00:03:29: So first of all, we want to find out what to do,

00:03:33: and second, how to do, which milestones do we need there?

00:03:38: Yeah, in order to make it all come true,

00:03:41: we are supporting municipal projects in energy and climate,

00:03:45: and one of our favorite projects,

00:03:49: or especially one of my favorite projects

00:03:52: has been realized in Busbar.

00:03:54: They are owning a cooperative wind farm and solar farm,

00:03:58: and they had recently installed an electrolyzer

00:04:01: to produce hydrogen, and as an electrolyzer

00:04:06: has an efficiency of just around 30%,

00:04:10: they have excessive heat losses generated in their system.

00:04:14: And in Busbar, these heat losses are used to heat water

00:04:19: up to 80 degrees C using a heat pump,

00:04:23: and then they distribute the heat

00:04:25: in a district heating system so that in the end,

00:04:28: the overall efficiency of the system lies around 95%.

00:04:33: Last not least, we are bringing people together.

00:04:36: In February, EKSH will be the host

00:04:39: of one of our most important energy transition conferences

00:04:43: called The Power Net 2024.

00:04:47: - Energy efficiency is a starting point for sustainability,

00:04:50: which obviously applies to power electronics.

00:04:52: - That has to do with any kind of efficiency

00:04:56: that you can think of.

00:04:58: It might result from building up the systems

00:05:01: using thermally active materials, using low resistance

00:05:09: interconnection techniques and materials,

00:05:12: and it is about the control of components,

00:05:16: it's control of the whole system in the end,

00:05:19: which will bring energy efficiency,

00:05:23: and I think the biggest level of gaining energy efficiency

00:05:28: is when it comes to sector coupling

00:05:31: so that you use heat losses

00:05:33: to feed district heating systems with extra heat,

00:05:38: which then is coming from a green source.

00:05:42: It's from the micro efficiency

00:05:44: to the large system efficiency

00:05:46: that we try to get better here.

00:05:49: - So it's a case of reduce if possible, and if not,

00:05:53: looking into ways of reusing the byproducts.

00:05:56: - Exactly.

00:05:57: - When it comes to efficiency,

00:05:58: it all starts with components and materials.

00:06:01: You mentioned silicon carbide before.

00:06:04: - Yes, we are having a large set of projects

00:06:08: running in research around silicon carbide,

00:06:13: gallium nitride, and other wide band gap materials

00:06:17: to, on the one hand side, better understand

00:06:20: to utilize these new semiconductor materials,

00:06:25: and on the other hand, to better understand

00:06:28: how to package these semiconductor materials,

00:06:33: and to house it, and to protect it

00:06:36: from the environmental impacts that they might suffer from,

00:06:40: and yeah, EKSH is also yeah, sharing some of these

00:06:48: project efforts here by funding, in that case,

00:06:53: a project where SIC is applied in EV charging stations.

00:06:58: - And is this a purely university research project,

00:07:00: or is it already in combination with an industry partner?

00:07:04: - It's a university project which is partnered

00:07:08: with a company here in Schleswig-Holstein,

00:07:11: so this will be the transfer partner

00:07:14: and in the end the knowhow,

00:07:16: which is mainly coming from the universities,

00:07:19: this knowhow will be transferred into industry,

00:07:22: and hopefully, will be transferred into market.

00:07:27: - And this is attractive for the industrial partner

00:07:29: because they're getting a better return on their investment.

00:07:32: - Exactly, and in the end they might also benefit

00:07:36: from the transfer in heads.

00:07:39: So it's the young talents being well educated

00:07:43: and trained on the topic that might,

00:07:46: after finalizing their project,

00:07:48: then start working for the transfer partner,

00:07:53: which is also a quite nice outcome of EKSH funding projects.

00:07:59: - Are these topics that companies

00:08:01: wouldn't finance themselves?

00:08:02: Is there some risk involved in the research?

00:08:05: - The company is carrying a share

00:08:08: of 20% of the cost by being involved by spending materials,

00:08:16: for instance, costly semiconductors,

00:08:18: and by also spending some money

00:08:23: into the project if required.

00:08:25: This is the rules that we have set here in EKSH

00:08:30: for our funding projects.

00:08:33: Typically, these university projects,

00:08:36: they have a certain risk of failing,

00:08:39: and it might be that companies

00:08:43: wouldn't enter into that project on their own

00:08:47: because of the risk, but also because

00:08:50: of a very long period after finalizing the project

00:08:57: before you really will be able to earn money with.

00:09:00: So it's a long return of investment,

00:09:03: and this can then be covered by funds of EKSH.

00:09:10: - You mentioned both wind and solar,

00:09:12: so are these important drivers

00:09:14: for sustainable development in Schleswig-Holstein?

00:09:17: - So renewable energies

00:09:20: are quite widely spread in Schleswig-Holstein.

00:09:24: We are having wind on land, we are having wind at sea,

00:09:28: and we are having many, many solar parks in the meantime.

00:09:33: So that's one of the reasons why Schleswig-Holstein believes

00:09:37: that they are renewable energy sources.

00:09:41: Land, number one, and they are also aiming

00:09:44: for be the first industry land that is mainly powered

00:09:50: by renewable energy sources.

00:09:52: And to achieve that goal, we need to be attractive

00:09:55: for industry companies in Schleswig-Holstein

00:10:00: by providing them, yes on the one hand side

00:10:03: achievable renewable energies, and at the same time,

00:10:08: we also need to present them new talents.

00:10:12: Yesterday, we got the last decision in Schleswig-Holstein

00:10:18: to let Northvolt start with their battery cell production,

00:10:26: and Schleswig-Holstein is quite proud

00:10:28: of having attracted Northvolt to set up their business,

00:10:33: and to set up the production plant here at our west coast.

00:10:38: And therefore, EKSH is also providing

00:10:43: this transfer projects in order to allow

00:10:48: for getting touch to people,

00:10:51: getting touch to recent research results,

00:10:56: and to boost the business around renewables,

00:10:59: and also wind projects are boosted here also.

00:11:04: Solar research is boosted here, but all in all,

00:11:09: it's about the whole energy system

00:11:11: that we try to get even better in Schleswig-Holstein

00:11:17: by linking research to municipalities, to companies,

00:11:22: and to the society in general.

00:11:25: - When you say linking and the whole energy system,

00:11:28: this could also be interpreted in terms of the grid.

00:11:31: - We are also trying to do research on energy grids.

00:11:38: There are some special situations

00:11:41: here in Schleswig-Holstein, so let's call it micro grids

00:11:45: where we can have some studies on how these grids are run,

00:11:51: how stable they are, how robust they are

00:11:56: towards breakdown and blackouts, and so on and so forth,

00:12:00: and so we also try to provide

00:12:03: these special micro grid situations as laboratory setups

00:12:10: for further research projects.

00:12:13: - Micro grid just refers to the fact that they're local,

00:12:15: or is there something special to finding a micro grid?

00:12:18: - No, no, that refers to being a local grid,

00:12:21: an island we are having a grid,

00:12:24: which is at least potentially cut off

00:12:28: the rest of the energy grid in Schleswig-Holstein.

00:12:32: They are having a battery storage plant,

00:12:36: and they might survive for hours and days

00:12:39: even when being plugged off the rest of the grid.

00:12:45: - So you're able to learn from these isolatable grids

00:12:48: because they're a sort of natural experiment?

00:12:50: - At least what we are trying to do

00:12:54: is to understand what happens

00:12:57: if you are having a multiplicity of island grids.

00:13:03: If they play together, what happens then?

00:13:06: Are there then even more robust or more stable

00:13:10: if these islands can either be plugged together,

00:13:15: or playing as an island grid.

00:13:17: All these different connections,

00:13:19: all these opportunities that you have

00:13:23: in these different island grids,

00:13:26: that should be well understood.

00:13:29: - And this is to do with the fact

00:13:30: that more and more renewable energy

00:13:32: is going to be decentrally produced,

00:13:34: and micro grids let us evaluate challenges now

00:13:37: that wider grids will be facing soon.

00:13:40: - Exactly.

00:13:41: The decentral grids, they are providing

00:13:45: some extra challenges to the grid operators.

00:13:49: For instance, if you would have asked Hanzevac

00:13:52: as our regional grid operator a couple of years ago,

00:13:55: how many power plants do you have in your responsibility,

00:14:01: they would have answered that yes,

00:14:03: this is around four bigger power plants,

00:14:06: nuclear power plant, and gas power plants, and so on.

00:14:12: And if you ask them today, they would probably answer

00:14:16: that around 40 to 50,000 power plants

00:14:20: are within their responsibility.

00:14:23: That's a huge change in how to build the grid,

00:14:27: and a huge change in how to control and run the grid.

00:14:32: - Okay, sticking with the grids for a second,

00:14:35: you're also researching smart transformers in this context?

00:14:40: - Yes, smart transformers are believed to be the future

00:14:43: in our decentral energy grids.

00:14:47: We are now seeing that the grid operators,

00:14:51: they are installing many, many huge transformers.

00:14:55: A switch towards a power electronics smart transformer

00:15:00: will provide two good opportunities.

00:15:05: The one is that via power electronics,

00:15:07: you will get access to all the data

00:15:11: in the transformer and about the grid, and at the same time,

00:15:17: you might get away from copper

00:15:19: and go towards semiconductor materials,

00:15:23: which is not as scarce resource as copper

00:15:27: will turn out to be in the future.

00:15:31: - One of the biggest challenges of the energy transition

00:15:33: is to get away from fossil fuels for heating.

00:15:36: Do you see challenges relevant

00:15:37: to power electronics here too?

00:15:40: - So if it comes to heating,

00:15:43: I think this is the most complicated transition

00:15:48: that we are having before us,

00:15:50: at least in Germany and in Schleswig-Holstein.

00:15:54: We might think of switching to heat pumps

00:15:59: in individual households, which will require

00:16:02: power electronics to control the compressor

00:16:06: in the heat pump optimally.

00:16:09: Otherwise, we would lose efficiency in the heat pump.

00:16:12: And the second way of playing it

00:16:16: would be with the district heating systems,

00:16:19: and the good question is how to feed

00:16:23: the district heating system with fossil free energies.

00:16:28: So currently, it might be a gas power plant,

00:16:31: or a coal power plant that is bringing electricity

00:16:36: to the electric power grid at the same time

00:16:38: as bringing the excessive heat

00:16:41: into the district heating system.

00:16:44: And in the future, it might be for instance

00:16:47: geothermal energy being used to generate

00:16:51: both the electric power, as well as the heat energy there.

00:16:57: And again, there it comes to power electronics

00:17:01: required for the geothermal exploration.

00:17:04: - And when you talk about controlling pumps efficiently,

00:17:07: do you mean in terms of the local control,

00:17:09: or does this encompass controlling

00:17:11: the repercussions for the grid?

00:17:13: - It might be both, in fact.

00:17:15: So it's the local control

00:17:17: in order to run the system efficiently,

00:17:20: and it's also the global aspect

00:17:23: of being used optimally for the grid stability

00:17:30: using a certain system, at a certain time,

00:17:33: with a certain power level, and so on.

00:17:36: So to provide grid stability,

00:17:40: it will be allowed to our grid operators

00:17:42: to switch on and switch off

00:17:46: certain energy consumers in their grid.

00:17:50: - These are big changes,

00:17:51: not just for energy suppliers and grid operators.

00:17:54: This is a new way for consumers

00:17:55: to think about utility companies.

00:17:58: - To get people on board for the energy transition,

00:18:03: I think this is a prerequisite

00:18:05: for the success of the energy transition,

00:18:09: and if you would like to enhance this acceptance

00:18:15: for all these measures in energy transition,

00:18:18: you need to let the people benefit from this solution.

00:18:23: So if people find out

00:18:24: that their personal energy transition

00:18:27: is really bringing money back,

00:18:30: they really can get mobility for free let's say,

00:18:35: or they can really get their electric power from the roof,

00:18:41: that would be something which people

00:18:44: really much better accept than if you just tell them

00:18:48: this has to be done, and please be part of it

00:18:51: even though you won't find any benefit in it.

00:18:55: Furthermore, you might have to spend much more money

00:18:58: on energy in the future.

00:19:00: That's it.

00:19:01: No, this is not how to get people.

00:19:04: To get people, it's to allow them

00:19:07: to find their own solutions, to get their benefit out of it,

00:19:12: to invest in future solutions,

00:19:15: and to harvest the benefits later on.

00:19:18: - I know one of the problems Germany faces

00:19:21: is distributing the renewable energy

00:19:23: from places like Schleswig-Holstein throughout the country.

00:19:26: So apart from boosting local use,

00:19:28: a good topic to touch on here

00:19:30: would also be the green hydrogen advances

00:19:32: that you're making.

00:19:34: - Green hydrogen plays a big role

00:19:36: in the energy transition plans in Schleswig-Holstein.

00:19:40: Currently, we are having round about 170%

00:19:45: of the electric energy that we need generated.

00:19:49: We should make green hydrogen

00:19:52: using this excessive electric energy,

00:19:56: and store the green hydrogen,

00:19:59: and then maybe re-electrify it later on

00:20:04: so that we are just having hydrogen as a storage medium.

00:20:09: Or what is an even better idea is to use the hydrogen,

00:20:14: for instance, to fire industrial processes,

00:20:18: high energy processes in industry,

00:20:21: and we are having such kind of industry,

00:20:24: we are having companies in the chemical business,

00:20:30: and they can make use of ammonia,

00:20:33: they can use hydrogen in their products and processes,

00:20:37: and this is something which lies

00:20:40: within the green hydrogen strategy of Schleswig-Holstein,

00:20:45: and EKSH is supporting this strategy,

00:20:49: this green hydrogen strategy.

00:20:52: - If you were to sum this up

00:20:53: and put it in the context of people, profit, and planet,

00:20:56: how do you see the significance

00:20:59: of power electronics looking forward?

00:21:02: - I think the importance

00:21:04: of coming to a sustainable growth

00:21:08: in power electronics business

00:21:10: is because of we will find power electronics

00:21:14: everywhere in the future.

00:21:16: So there is nearly no application

00:21:19: where no power electronics will be involved in the solution.

00:21:24: The more sustainable we produce

00:21:27: our power electronic products,

00:21:29: and the more reliable they are, so long living,

00:21:33: and the more recyclability we are putting

00:21:38: into these projects, the better for the future.

00:21:42: So then the electronic waste

00:21:44: will not fully pollute our Earth,

00:21:48: and that would be a great achievement.

00:21:50: But we could have a look

00:21:51: in the different sectors of the energy transitions

00:21:57: to find out where in practical life

00:22:01: power electronics will be placed.

00:22:04: It will be definitely a part in mobility and transportation,

00:22:09: so we will find even more battery driven vehicles,

00:22:13: as well as hydrogen-driven cars, bikes, trucks, coaches,

00:22:19: boats, ships, planes, and helicopters,

00:22:22: and all of those they will be using power electronics.

00:22:26: Even more trains will have to be electrified,

00:22:30: and if hydrogen is used as an energy carrier,

00:22:35: also power electronics will be used

00:22:38: in connection with the fuel cells in the power grid itself.

00:22:42: We already talked about power electronics

00:22:46: being used for making smart transformers,

00:22:50: or smart mega volt, short couplings, control systems,

00:22:55: and also in the energy storage systems.

00:22:57: Think of batteries which need to be

00:23:00: charged and discharged efficiently.

00:23:03: - And if we also put people into this picture?

00:23:06: - It's also about talents.

00:23:09: We need to understand the energy flow

00:23:12: in a power electronic systems fully,

00:23:14: not just the electrical part of it.

00:23:17: So it will require the understanding

00:23:20: of electronics and thermodynamics as well.

00:23:25: Power electronic engineers,

00:23:27: they will be multi talents in the future,

00:23:30: and they are already.

00:23:33: And as in knowing everything

00:23:34: is a domain of a huge community,

00:23:36: our power electronics engineers

00:23:39: will have to be communication talents as well,

00:23:43: and it's so many professionals being involved

00:23:47: from, yeah, legal specialists, to technical specialists,

00:23:53: to social specialists, and so on.

00:23:57: So PE specialists with team spirit and communication skills

00:24:01: will be the most required resources in the future,

00:24:06: and there EKSH is trying to do good in that.

00:24:11: And we need to understand each other,

00:24:13: we need to work together, and we need to focus on the goals

00:24:16: on climate protection and transition, and so on.

00:24:21: - Thank you very much, Frank,

00:24:22: for your valuable insights into the big picture,

00:24:24: and the role of power electronics in this.

00:24:28: If anything in this episode has sparked your interest,

00:24:30: there are links to the specific

00:24:32: EKSH project in the transcript,

00:24:34: as well as links to many other EKSH projects

00:24:37: and areas of activity.

00:24:39: If you found this episode useful,

00:24:41: please remember to subscribe for future episodes,

00:24:45: and if you think this episode

00:24:46: or the podcast itself would be of interest

00:24:48: to anybody you know, please do share it.

00:24:52: For "Sound On Power On," and to the PCIM Europe,

00:24:55: I'm David Haggerty, and I look forward to our next episode.

00:25:00: (gentle music)

00:25:02: - We hope you enjoyed this edition

00:25:03: of "Sound On Power On" powered by PCIM Europe.

00:25:07: Do subscribe and share.